No, that's just a stereotype. Wrestling is only gay when same gender sex becomes involved. Wrestling in my opinion is just a form of domination over another male or female.
In answer to Mr Ironbull, I'm guessing your nephew is straight! I think Wrestling most certainly is not 'Gay'in itself (in the sense that gay men only participate or like it). If the 14yo lad were in an American High School the wrestlers are looked up to and respected like the footballlers - and of course any age/size/weight and either gender can, and do, practise the sport. In the UK, unlike the US or Germany for example, wrestling is a minority sport and people are far less aware of it now than they are perhaps almost any other sport.
I am sure the answer is not always a simple one; Yes, if you are gay you may see it as a sport some gay men like to watch and participate in - and if you are, like me, will you find it exciting to wrestle another man on a number of levels.
I believe straight boys and men who wrestle as a sport see it entirely differently - as I might view tennis or snooker. Their interest is only in their opponent's skill, strength and stamina. They have no interest in the guy as a guy whatsoever and certainly not as a potential sexual interest.
I would suggest the 'gay sport' tag has arisen partly as women often do not like to see their boys wrestle since they fear the close contact with the same sex might 'make them gay'and as a child I was certainly discouraged as were friends by their mothers - wrestling was 'not nice' or even 'dirty'.
It's a complex subject however and I accept others will have other views based on their own experiences. And yes, teenagers with their, um, flexible use of language today, can and do have two meanings for the word 'gay' the second of which is much the same way we might have said 'naff' or 'soft'.
I believe straight boys and men who wrestle as a sport see it entirely differently - as I might view tennis or snooker. Their interest is only in their opponent's skill, strength and stamina. They have no interest in the guy as a guy whatsoever...
Not quite. I grapple with straight guys regularly and there is a huge amount of mutual respect and concern between us. It is probably similar in other sports, but there is something about fighting which makes for a deeper bond. The warrior spirit is very strong.
Try explaining that to your average gay guy - and trying to explain that it has nothing to do with getting a hard on - and it just goes right over his head.
Yes, I'd fully agree with your point - very well made! I should have said, "they have no sexual interest in the guy whatsoever..."
Yes, absolutely agree, good wrestlers, boxers and fighters of all genders will have respect and concern for their opponent and I'd certainly agree fighting a boy or man makes for a deeper bond. You echo a point I always felt during my boyhood years - that a new friend was really made when we had shared all sorts of confidences and interests, yes, but then finally had wrestled. It was like nothing else in underlining and forming our friendship. Thank you for making such a good point and reminding me of a happy attitude from long ago! :D
Agree with Ironbull...everybody is different and will have a different map of the world - when applied to wrestling this will mean that different outcomes are desired. Best not to judge others Sturdy man!
Sturdy I have agreed with you on loads of your comments but "gay men see everything physical in a sexual context ONLY" could as easily be applied to straight men if you removed the word gay. It is also in my limited experience wrong! It has been mainly me at meets saying "you know I am straight" thereby putting the focus back on sex when my opponents was probably thinking of locks that would make me tap before he did.
To be fair there are probably loads of women it would apply to as well.
While people continue going on about wrestling having a sexual aspect then it will still be perceived in that way. You could be a force for change on this you know.
Someone said to me a few days back that years ago the only time a woman could see a man without his shirt was WOS on Saturday afternoon, is that not where a bit of the image comes from.
I know very few gay men who fit that monolithic depiction. Perhaps you know the wrong men. Really you seem to have a very low opinion of us all - ramming home this damning assessment over and over. I wonder why you even subscribe to this site if you think so little of us.
Of course wrestling is not gay. Sports in general are not gay or straight. People are gay and like most sports there are a mix of athletes. Of course, that's not to say wrestling isn't a huge turn on for most of us. But I hold my position and believe wrestling in itself is not "gay".
This is a difficult one to answer. I think I would say Wrestling is not Gay whether you do via Pro, Submission, UFC or Freestyle etc. These are all athletes in different ways and train hard. I wrestle at a MMA club every friday and I have no idea if any are gay and as I am there to train so I don't care. Was funny though when i did a submission competition last summer in London with my old club that at least 10 guys there were from this site. Too no surprise of any of us, we all wrestled to win and no Bum squeezing happened. lol If I was to put my hand on my heart I would say I was a Bi married man who likes to test his manhood and skill against another guy but Im shit at football and rugby. My wife is not a fan of wrestling but knows I love it. If I am meeting in a matroom I can usually explain but I don't try if its a hotel match. The lucky thing for me is I travel so much I am usually on my own anyway. The comment about WWE and guys in spandex. Well surprise surprise there not usually gay guys. Its about your audience, A str8 guy won't care, a gay guy may or may not love it and a women will probably fantasies about it being your husband. Most wrestling feds cater for all. BG is in the middle for gays as give you variety whereas Hardrockwrestling and Can-am its about gay twinks and muscle men who generally can't wrestle. I am rambling and just dumping thoughts now so I should probably stop. Quick conclusion, Wrestling is a sport and is what you make it. I have had it called a gay sport before. My response is always - You think so? well lets step onto the mats and then you tell me when you have enough.
With the rise of YouTube etc, it is so much easier to watch soft gay porn and lot of that is wrestling, muscle worship etc so can see how the two are related in people's head.
Well that is an interesting question for me since I perceive myself as bi…but I am only bi with fighting…It would never cross my mind to follow a guy into a bar for sex…but if I fight another man boxing or wrestling or anything in between, then sex becomes very acceptable and open for me...So is it gay or not…I have no idea, except that I do, and have enjoyed man to man fighting since I was a kid and what follows the fight is just something that happens to happen…
OK tell you what, since you seemingly haven't understood the reason for starting the thread (it was a question not an assertion) let me explain to you in simple terms why I think wrestling has a uniquely sexual element:
1. It is the only sport that I can think of that has overtly sexualised professional counterpart. On TV what do you have? A parade of muscles, spandex, masks and oiled flesh.
2. It is disparaged in may quarters despite being an Olympic sport. I can think of no other sport so reviled. Why? Could it be homophobia in the strictest sense of the word?
3. If you look at the threads and the number of responses in the forum, the ones with sexual content are among the most popular. In fact there is a positive correlation between sexual content and the level of interest.
4. Even this site, which is pretty good at eliminating time wasters, offers personal profile options that are overtly fetish and sex related. How many gay rubgy sites, for example, ask their members whether they are into the gear? How many gay football teams attract pictures of men in spandex masks and thongs? That's not a criticism of those who post such pics but it is an observable phenomenon. Why should you or anyone else ridicule them?
5. This site is designed to make men feel comfortable with fighting and with their sexuality. Some of those men are on major personal journeys and wrestling is a valuable environment for them. I trust that sites like this will always exist to ensure that this is available.
6. I know for a fact that married men on here are uncomfortable telling their wives that they wrestle. Why? Would they be equally reluctant to tell their wives that they play golf? Perhaps it is because wrestling is seen as gay by the outside world (see my very first posting in this thread).
7. Fighting is a primitive instict. Sex is a primitive instinct. The QUESTION I asked (which you have mistaken for a firmly held view) is whether sexuality and wrestling were related and linked.
8. Wrestling involves close body contact. It involves physical fitness and development which the casual viewer might find to be impressive and even erotic. I recall reading in an old wrestling magazine from the 60s "when they look at a wrestler in the ring, the man in the front row sees the man he might have been and his wife sees the man she might have married". Icons of masculinity. It is not of course the only sport has these characteristics but I can think of no other sport in which close man to man physical contact is the point of the sport rather than merely a necessary by-product.
This site is here to make men feel welcome and at ease. Technical standards will vary but the majority are do not have a "one-dimensional and one track mind" as you rather insultingly put it, but rather simply enjoy being themselves as they have a perfect right to do without being judged, scorned or patronised.
I have wrestled for nearly 25 years. I have met many fine men and good wrestlers many of whom brought a sexual motive or an element of fetish to their enjoyment. I do so myself with full respect for others and anyone who disparages me for it can go to hell. Conversely neither I nor anyone else here has ever, to my knowledge, imposed their sexuality or anyone else. Having a sexual interest in wrestling is in no way inconsistent with being a competent or committed wrestler. Indeed is a powerful motivator to keep wrestling.
I think I have now expanded upon my thoughts as much a I want to. I am not particularly inclined to add anything further. If you do not agree then that is fine. Each to his own. But please do not presume to judge me for it.
I think that you are absolutly spot on,there is a sexual element in wrestling. I have great respect for wrestling as a sport,for the men and women who does this sport at a very high level and for the tough,grueling training they have to do!I did get the chance to train with some wrestlers at a wrestling club,so i got to know how tough and hard this sport really is.I have become a real fan of wrestling,and i watch a lot of wrestling,going to a lot of tournaments,and watching it on the net. Taking up wrestling as an adult,by starting to train wrestling,i began to discover that there was an extra element to it.And by watching wrestling as a spectator,i discovered that i was getting sexualy excited,seeing wrestlers,does not matter if it is women or men really,going hard at it.I noticed when i was training,when i got to lift and trow a training partner,or when i got someone in a headlock,dominating someone,i got a hard on.Also when i was beeing lifted and thrown,when i was put in a headlock and bridging to get out of it,or beeing suplexed,beeing dominated, i got this sexual feeling.It is not i can control,this feeling just comes.It is not the person you wrestle, it is the atraction of wrestling!Winning over a oponent in wrestling has a dimension no other sport has, that sexual drive,as you said is a great motivator.I started wearing a cup so not anyone noticed and bulges under the tight singlets are not unusual at all. Nothing other than the wrestling action happened,but i was getting these sexual feelings,i can not deny that.So i do agree with what you are saying.And it is not neceserally about beeing gay or straight,it about fighting and wrestling beeing both a great sport,and very sexy!
Of course you're entitled to your views, it's just that when they appear to make no sense people will ask you to explain them. You then have every right to defend your position with reasoned argument.
Hmm. Well we're all different. But you must admit that the topic has prompted fierce debate.
For myself, I think wrestling has uniquely sexual potential among sports, and the more society is sexually permissive the more wrestling is sexualised. Therefore, in cultural terms, wrestling is gay and has to fight its way out of that corner or be consigned to the world of fetish where currently it languishes.
It is disappointing that so many gay men have so little imagination that they are incapable of understanding how wrestling can be enjoyed for exactly what it is - a SPORT.
Maybe it is because of a lack of experience. At school I was bored with sport and never got involved so I never experienced the male bonding culture.
Things are different now. I train at a BJJ club and spar with straight men. We all enjoy the grappling very much, and all in the same way: as an adrenaline, rush, release of aggression, fight to win.
I've seen gay pro/fetish wrestlers having a lark and it is a million miles from what I do.
Enjoy wrestling as wank material if you want, but do try to understand that the image in your mind when you are masturbating is not the actual reality.
I really don't understand all the fuzz about wrestling being “gay”. Considered objectively, wrestling, grappling, Pro-Wrestling is just another form of sports and/or entertainment with its specific sets of rules and regulations, and has nothing to do with the sexual notions of “gay” or “straight” or what ever.
If your are sexually aroused by practising or watching grappling/wrestling, then – well, then wrestling per se still isn't “gay”. It's YOU who are probably gay or bisexual or have a kind of wrestling fetish. And so what? If you don't feel any kind of sexual arousal or erotic stimulation while practising/watching wrestling, you can still enjoy the excitement of the competition or the physical exercise. And if you feel any erotic arousal – even better! Then you still can enjoy the excitement of the competition and the physical exercise PLUS the additional benefit of erotic pleasure. So, where's the “problem”?
grappler2112 and I were in a public place together recent and we'd just been discussing aikido. He spontaneously decided to demonstrate some on me which was highly effective. It was done in a friendly, non aggressive way and although I was experiencing real pain, anyone watching could tell it took place playfully and within the boundaries of trust. We both noted interestingly that men walking past all seemed to grin and get an eyeful of the situation and I perceived that they were wishing they were involved. This was not a sexual experience that i knew of for anyone but it seemed to tap into the innate male natural wish to grapple.
I'd love to hear of similar experiences... Perhaps try our scenario and gauge the reaction of passers-by!
A very interesting discussion! I've no real insight but I have a story. Back in the mid-1960's I was in high school in the US. One of my buddies was talking with a classmate who was on the wrestling team. Teens can get an erection at the drop of a feather so he asked the wrestler if that was a problem. As I recall the wrestler said 'it happens but it's no big thing'. The physical contact is just physical contact and if your dick is rubbing up against someone's butt you are likely to get a physical reaction. Especially if you are a teen!
IronbullUK: "Is it not the case that wrestling is inherently sexual?"
No, it is not the case.
Wrestling is exciting and physical and satisfying, yes, so I can see the parallels, but unless you are Sigmund Freud then you cannot call it sexual just for those reasons.
I think this (very prevalent) attitude among gay men that wrestling = sex tells us very little about wrestling and very much about how the minds of a lot of gay men work.
So many gay men are brainwashed by a combination of homophobia and the commercially hypersexual Gay Scene Orthodoxy that they have a totally distorted perception of what masculinity is.
Wrestling is a sport. Honestly. Yes, I know Gaydar lists it as a 'Sexual activity' profile option, but it really isn't.
Look up "wrestling" in a dictionary or on Wikipedia. Your jaw may drop when you discover there is absolutely NO mention of gay sex!!!
"Am I the only one to feel a satisfaction after wrestling that feels very much like sexual satisfaction?"
It's called an endorphin high. You can get it from jogging, swimming, cycling, etc. etc... all of which I'm sure you can sexualise!
There's no doubt that there is a sexual charge to wrestling and gay/bi men will enjoy it. But in a lot of male-male contact sport "straight" men will get a "homoerotic" thrill out of what they are doing - even if not admitted. That's because fighting like sex is a deeply rooted male instinct - and the reality of it is - is that there is a sexual thrill to these competitions - whether you are a gay man or not.
The national growth in team/contact sports games between males has increased since the Second World War which is the lat time ordinary men were "required" to go into combat.
The ancient greeks treated homsexuality/wrestling as a stage in male maturity. It is only our society that wants to force men into a single category. We are all individuals.
I think guys are pretty complex sexually and as one poster said wrestling can be sexual without being genital.
He's 20 and at uni. The youth of today....they are far more comfortable asking about these things that when I were a lad lol
It's amazing how many definitions of "gay" have appeared in this thread. I only have only one and it equates to homosexual, but I am admittedly an old git.
I would maybe take him to a local jiu jitsu or wrestling club so that he can see that wrestling is a combat sport first and foremost. While many men (including straight men) find a sexual thrill and connection from it as well, that should never diminish the true nature of the sport itself.
Ironbull, what was the context of the conversation with the nephew? Here in the United States, freestyle, collegiate and greco roman wrestling is taught from a very early age on in many schools and clubs across the country. Many submission grappling and pankration events have youth categories for kids as young as 5 and none of these events are hardly viewed as 'gay' by the participants or their parents/families/friends.
I, with hindsight, foolishly admitted to a straight friend about my wrestling. Unfortunately said "friend" spread it around as gossip, and quickly found myself lampooned. But that was a long time ago.
It's an unanswerable question really. Like many things, the "genral public" will make ill-informed perceptions about something they don't understand or have tried. People find it easy to dismiss something they don't understand as "wrong" or "weird". Look at how people treat religions for an overwhelming example.
But is wrestling "gay"? The lack of clothing and lots of body-contact is a turn-on for many.
But wrestling is also about a true battle of wills, strength, guile, dominance. Playful or aggressive, it's something natural amongst males .. and can be witnessed throughout nature too.
But of course, it's all about perception. I'm sure a lot of my straight male friends would love a play-fight, but wouldn't feel so happy about taking their shirts off and explaining bruises to their gf's/wives. Yet it is in our very nature as guys to grapple eachother, prove "who's strongest", and to bond in the way men tend to regardless of sexuality.
The "sex" energy is misunderstood and simplified. So often relegated as the urge to "have sex", this same emotion defines urges to fight, protect, expend pent-up energy, even get a bit primal and grapple that man.
Yes, it can be a prelude to something "gay", but it can also be a wonderful outlet of aggression in a manly way. The image isn;t great, and don't expect it to change much - a lot of small-minded ignorants out there will reinforce this.
It's all about a "stigma" connecting man2man grappling with homosexuality. If that stigma never existed I am convinced you would see legions of straight men feel comfortable enough to join us and wrestle.
Is it not the case that wrestling is inherently sexual? I don't mean that it replicates or substitutes for or is a prelude to the sexual act. I mean that it has a significance that is deeply personal, intimate and related in some way to sexual identity. The gear amplifies and proclaims this so I agree with Darren's point.
Am I the only one to feel a satisfaction after wrestling that feels very much like sexual satisfaction? I doubt it.
This is a very interesting strand, with some very perceptive comments being made. I'm not sure I fully agree with Darren's comment about the sexual perception being just related to the way wrestling's executed (and I'm sure he won't be miffed at my saying so) - simply because MMA/UFC is getting an increasing amount of coverage as a serious sport, yet the gear can be skimpy in the extreme and the physical contact as close as any form of combat sport. I think it's more of a cultural thing perpetuated by US forms and the business and money they generate, especially in the internet age - and I think BG East and NHB Battles and the like have plenty to answer for! With UTube and daily motion full of clips from this type of wrestling, we can't really expect younger viewers to see it as a "straight" sport. And whilst I've never told work colleagues about my recreational wrestling, many of my friends know and although some have expressed surprise, all have been supportive.
I wonder if there is a correlation between acceptance of homosexuality and marginalisation of wrestling. I am fascinated to learn that in homophobic countries - Iran, Afghanistan, Arab countries - wrestling is unashamed of itself (as used to be the case in the West). Who on this site would tell their mates down the pub that they wrestle as a hobby.....?
There have been many changes in society since WoS' heyday - some of them good, even - but the main change was the introduction of WWE to these shores.
With due apologies to our American cousins, WWE totally changed UK society's view of wrestling - and changed it for the worse, IMHO.
In WoS' day, it was "real" men, who (by and large) got straight in the ring, were briefly introduced by the MC, and then got on with it. They were the sort of blokes who you might see down the pub or in the barbers. There were very few bodybuilders, just in shape blokes, who had other jobs during the day and wrestled in the evenings for money AND for the love of the sport.
The vast majority wore just plain trunks and boots - and were blokes you could aspire to being, if you were prepared to put in some time down the gym.
Compare that with today's WWE, which is pure garbage. Hype, badly-scripted story lines, takes 10 or so minutes for a bout to even get going and when it does it's simply not credible. I do not doubt their fitness or dedication to the gym - but it's not a form of wrestling that I find at all appealing.
Add to that the current vogue for having skin-trunks with logos right on the crotch and ass and you can see why the "gay" label comes about. The homo-erotic aspects of pro-wrestling were far more subtle in WoS' day - with WWE, they're blatant and hence leave the sport open to the criticism of being "gay" - in all senses of the word....
So is the gay perception a reason why it is treated with less respect thatn other combat sports? And if so, what has changed in society since World of Sport's heyday?
Would the same question be raised of boxing? Judo? Karate? In my opinion, no, it wouldn't.
So it's not the combat aspect of wrestling that leaves it open to the accusation of being "gay", it's the way the sport is executed.
I recently saw a news article on the telly for a submission wrestling tournament taking place in a town near me. The guys were wearing combat shorts and T-shirts - and I don't think anybody would have accused those guys of being "gay". But it probably would have been different, had they been wearing skimpy trunks and little else...
So I guess I agree with Turpin and Sturdy - wrestling is as "gay" as you want it to be - but it doesn't have to be, that's for sure....
Like so many questions there's no simple answer. But basically wrestling itself isn't gay - it is one of the oldest and "simplest" sports in human history. Just go back to the years immediately after WW2 to the heyday of WoS: wrestling was enjoyed by millions of both sexes and all ages. The theatrical and stylised pro wrestling emanating from the US and aped in the UK killed off sensible adult interest and the sport has suffered since. Its perception as gay now stems from ignorance of what wrestling actually is - critics do not trouble to look beyond the physical contact of mostly naked flesh. There is also a lot of fear:it's easy to dismiss something as "gay" i.e beneath heterosexual notice, when in reality most straight guys who train at the gym and show their muscles off at the beach in Lanzarote once a year etc would run a mile rather than face up to a real fight. It is pyschologically not easy to get your clothes off and pit your strength and skill, unsupported by tools or protective gear, against another guy in the most uncompromising of contact sports. It's not gay unless you want it to be....
Iremember Eminem saying wrestlers were gays despite the fact many Americans are taught this sport at college. Either way if he sees men prancing around in spandex or Y fronts such as WWF and his friends say it's gay (because their parents say so) then I can see where he's coming from.
Teach him a few nelson moves and I'm sure he;ll change his point of views once he uses these new skills on his mates. Yes they may call it gay (close body contact with another man/boy) but then that's just typical represed sexual feelings of youth that don't know what's good for them/what they enjoy.
Maybe because he watches WWE and sees preened choreographed bodybuilders prancing around pretending they are fighting. If this is what he thinks wrestling is, then I can understand why he thinks it's gay (in both senses of the word!)
Stick some UFC on and see if he thinks THAT is gay...
No, it was the basis for a reasonable question. I could have phrased it as "why does wrestling attract a derision not shares by other sports and is it because it uniquely has gay properties" but my nephew couched it in more succinct terms.
Hmmm, well fistly I'd clarify with him what he means by "gay". I understand the youth of today use gay to mean something is good (or perhaps bad - I can't remember which).
GutPuncher89 (1 )
29.8.2012 14:57No, that's just a stereotype. Wrestling is only gay when same gender sex becomes involved. Wrestling in my opinion is just a form of domination over another male or female.
YORKIE (30)
22.7.2012 15:56In answer to Mr Ironbull, I'm guessing your nephew is straight! I think Wrestling most certainly is not 'Gay'in itself (in the sense that gay men only participate or like it). If the 14yo lad were in an American High School the wrestlers are looked up to and respected like the footballlers - and of course any age/size/weight and either gender can, and do, practise the sport. In the UK, unlike the US or Germany for example, wrestling is a minority sport and people are far less aware of it now than they are perhaps almost any other sport.
I am sure the answer is not always a simple one; Yes, if you are gay you may see it as a sport some gay men like to watch and participate in - and if you are, like me, will you find it exciting to wrestle another man on a number of levels.
I believe straight boys and men who wrestle as a sport see it entirely differently - as I might view tennis or snooker. Their interest is only in their opponent's skill, strength and stamina. They have no interest in the guy as a guy whatsoever and certainly not as a potential sexual interest.
I would suggest the 'gay sport' tag has arisen partly as women often do not like to see their boys wrestle since they fear the close contact with the same sex might 'make them gay'and as a child I was certainly discouraged as were friends by their mothers - wrestling was 'not nice' or even 'dirty'.
It's a complex subject however and I accept others will have other views based on their own experiences. And yes, teenagers with their, um, flexible use of language today, can and do have two meanings for the word 'gay' the second of which is much the same way we might have said 'naff' or 'soft'.
Sturdy (31)
29.8.2012 20:30(In antwoord hierop)
I believe straight boys and men who wrestle as a sport see it entirely differently - as I might view tennis or snooker. Their interest is only in their opponent's skill, strength and stamina. They have no interest in the guy as a guy whatsoever...
Not quite. I grapple with straight guys regularly and there is a huge amount of mutual respect and concern between us. It is probably similar in other sports, but there is something about fighting which makes for a deeper bond. The warrior spirit is very strong.
Try explaining that to your average gay guy - and trying to explain that it has nothing to do with getting a hard on - and it just goes right over his head.
YORKIE (30)
29.8.2012 21:49(In antwoord hierop)
Yes, I'd fully agree with your point - very well made! I should have said, "they have no sexual interest in the guy whatsoever..."
Yes, absolutely agree, good wrestlers, boxers and fighters of all genders will have respect and concern for their opponent and I'd certainly agree fighting a boy or man makes for a deeper bond. You echo a point I always felt during my boyhood years - that a new friend was really made when we had shared all sorts of confidences and interests, yes, but then finally had wrestled. It was like nothing else in underlining and forming our friendship. Thank you for making such a good point and reminding me of a happy attitude from long ago! :D
Best regards
Vanman (87 )
19.7.2012 23:48Wrestling just IS
Enjoy it and let everyone enjoy it however they want.
Sturdy (31)
19.7.2012 23:43Sure it can apply to straight men and women too. Pippa's and the Hackney matroom would not exist if not for men's desire for women wrestlers.
And women see the man they might have married...
Is wrestling straight?
restle (31)
19.7.2012 22:36Agree with Ironbull...everybody is different and will have a different map of the world - when applied to wrestling this will mean that different outcomes are desired. Best not to judge others Sturdy man!
Vanman (87 )
19.7.2012 21:24Sturdy I have agreed with you on loads of your comments but "gay men see everything physical in a sexual context ONLY" could as easily be applied to straight men if you removed the word gay. It is also in my limited experience wrong! It has been mainly me at meets saying "you know I am straight" thereby putting the focus back on sex when my opponents was probably thinking of locks that would make me tap before he did.
To be fair there are probably loads of women it would apply to as well.
While people continue going on about wrestling having a sexual aspect then it will still be perceived in that way. You could be a force for change on this you know.
Someone said to me a few days back that years ago the only time a woman could see a man without his shirt was WOS on Saturday afternoon, is that not where a bit of the image comes from.
Ironbull (96)
19.7.2012 20:44I know very few gay men who fit that monolithic depiction. Perhaps you know the wrong men. Really you seem to have a very low opinion of us all - ramming home this damning assessment over and over. I wonder why you even subscribe to this site if you think so little of us.
Sturdy (31)
16.7.2012 16:18I'm saying that lots of gay men see everything physical in a sexual context ONLY... regardless of the reality of the situation.
Mark uk (293)
16.7.2012 16:14Sturdy. I am not quite sure what your last comment was supposed to mean. Are we a Gay Sex guys and you a straight one?
Sturdy (31)
15.7.2012 20:34If you see the world thru gay sex coloured googgles, then of course everything is gay.
wrstlny1 (0)
15.7.2012 18:24Of course wrestling is not gay. Sports in general are not gay or straight. People are gay and like most sports there are a mix of athletes. Of course, that's not to say wrestling isn't a huge turn on for most of us. But I hold my position and believe wrestling in itself is not "gay".
Vanman (87 )
15.7.2012 18:08Well said Sir
Mark uk (293)
15.7.2012 12:38This is a difficult one to answer. I think I would say Wrestling is not Gay whether you do via Pro, Submission, UFC or Freestyle etc. These are all athletes in different ways and train hard. I wrestle at a MMA club every friday and I have no idea if any are gay and as I am there to train so I don't care. Was funny though when i did a submission competition last summer in London with my old club that at least 10 guys there were from this site. Too no surprise of any of us, we all wrestled to win and no Bum squeezing happened. lol If I was to put my hand on my heart I would say I was a Bi married man who likes to test his manhood and skill against another guy but Im shit at football and rugby. My wife is not a fan of wrestling but knows I love it. If I am meeting in a matroom I can usually explain but I don't try if its a hotel match. The lucky thing for me is I travel so much I am usually on my own anyway. The comment about WWE and guys in spandex. Well surprise surprise there not usually gay guys. Its about your audience, A str8 guy won't care, a gay guy may or may not love it and a women will probably fantasies about it being your husband. Most wrestling feds cater for all. BG is in the middle for gays as give you variety whereas Hardrockwrestling and Can-am its about gay twinks and muscle men who generally can't wrestle. I am rambling and just dumping thoughts now so I should probably stop. Quick conclusion, Wrestling is a sport and is what you make it. I have had it called a gay sport before. My response is always - You think so? well lets step onto the mats and then you tell me when you have enough.
XXL Alpha Brute (0)
14.7.2012 13:39With the rise of YouTube etc, it is so much easier to watch soft gay porn and lot of that is wrestling, muscle worship etc so can see how the two are related in people's head.
bifighter (0)
07.7.2012 20:36Well that is an interesting question for me since I perceive myself as bi…but I am only bi with fighting…It would never cross my mind to follow a guy into a bar for sex…but if I fight another man boxing or wrestling or anything in between, then sex becomes very acceptable and open for me...So is it gay or not…I have no idea, except that I do, and have enjoyed man to man fighting since I was a kid and what follows the fight is just something that happens to happen…
Ironbull (96)
05.7.2012 23:57OK tell you what, since you seemingly haven't understood the reason for starting the thread (it was a question not an assertion) let me explain to you in simple terms why I think wrestling has a uniquely sexual element:
1. It is the only sport that I can think of that has overtly sexualised professional counterpart. On TV what do you have? A parade of muscles, spandex, masks and oiled flesh.
2. It is disparaged in may quarters despite being an Olympic sport. I can think of no other sport so reviled. Why? Could it be homophobia in the strictest sense of the word?
3. If you look at the threads and the number of responses in the forum, the ones with sexual content are among the most popular. In fact there is a positive correlation between sexual content and the level of interest.
4. Even this site, which is pretty good at eliminating time wasters, offers personal profile options that are overtly fetish and sex related. How many gay rubgy sites, for example, ask their members whether they are into the gear? How many gay football teams attract pictures of men in spandex masks and thongs? That's not a criticism of those who post such pics but it is an observable phenomenon. Why should you or anyone else ridicule them?
5. This site is designed to make men feel comfortable with fighting and with their sexuality. Some of those men are on major personal journeys and wrestling is a valuable environment for them. I trust that sites like this will always exist to ensure that this is available.
6. I know for a fact that married men on here are uncomfortable telling their wives that they wrestle. Why? Would they be equally reluctant to tell their wives that they play golf? Perhaps it is because wrestling is seen as gay by the outside world (see my very first posting in this thread).
7. Fighting is a primitive instict. Sex is a primitive instinct. The QUESTION I asked (which you have mistaken for a firmly held view) is whether sexuality and wrestling were related and linked.
8. Wrestling involves close body contact. It involves physical fitness and development which the casual viewer might find to be impressive and even erotic. I recall reading in an old wrestling magazine from the 60s "when they look at a wrestler in the ring, the man in the front row sees the man he might have been and his wife sees the man she might have married". Icons of masculinity. It is not of course the only sport has these characteristics but I can think of no other sport in which close man to man physical contact is the point of the sport rather than merely a necessary by-product.
This site is here to make men feel welcome and at ease. Technical standards will vary but the majority are do not have a "one-dimensional and one track mind" as you rather insultingly put it, but rather simply enjoy being themselves as they have a perfect right to do without being judged, scorned or patronised.
I have wrestled for nearly 25 years. I have met many fine men and good wrestlers many of whom brought a sexual motive or an element of fetish to their enjoyment. I do so myself with full respect for others and anyone who disparages me for it can go to hell. Conversely neither I nor anyone else here has ever, to my knowledge, imposed their sexuality or anyone else. Having a sexual interest in wrestling is in no way inconsistent with being a competent or committed wrestler. Indeed is a powerful motivator to keep wrestling.
I think I have now expanded upon my thoughts as much a I want to. I am not particularly inclined to add anything further. If you do not agree then that is fine. Each to his own. But please do not presume to judge me for it.
Headlockfan (0)
28.8.2012 15:55(In antwoord hierop)
I think that you are absolutly spot on,there is a sexual element in wrestling. I have great respect for wrestling as a sport,for the men and women who does this sport at a very high level and for the tough,grueling training they have to do!I did get the chance to train with some wrestlers at a wrestling club,so i got to know how tough and hard this sport really is.I have become a real fan of wrestling,and i watch a lot of wrestling,going to a lot of tournaments,and watching it on the net. Taking up wrestling as an adult,by starting to train wrestling,i began to discover that there was an extra element to it.And by watching wrestling as a spectator,i discovered that i was getting sexualy excited,seeing wrestlers,does not matter if it is women or men really,going hard at it.I noticed when i was training,when i got to lift and trow a training partner,or when i got someone in a headlock,dominating someone,i got a hard on.Also when i was beeing lifted and thrown,when i was put in a headlock and bridging to get out of it,or beeing suplexed,beeing dominated, i got this sexual feeling.It is not i can control,this feeling just comes.It is not the person you wrestle, it is the atraction of wrestling!Winning over a oponent in wrestling has a dimension no other sport has, that sexual drive,as you said is a great motivator.I started wearing a cup so not anyone noticed and bulges under the tight singlets are not unusual at all. Nothing other than the wrestling action happened,but i was getting these sexual feelings,i can not deny that.So i do agree with what you are saying.And it is not neceserally about beeing gay or straight,it about fighting and wrestling beeing both a great sport,and very sexy!
merseywrestle (62)
05.7.2012 23:53Ok whats the big deal here wrestling is what u make of it whether it be sexual or a sport or one leading into another with mutual consent..
Ironbull (96)
05.7.2012 23:04I think I have.
Sturdy (31)
05.7.2012 22:39Of course you're entitled to your views, it's just that when they appear to make no sense people will ask you to explain them. You then have every right to defend your position with reasoned argument.
Ironbull (96)
05.7.2012 21:12Sturdy, people are allowed to have their own views without being so dismissed.
Sturdy (31)
03.7.2012 21:36Van, I know exactly where you are coming from. Unfortunately most guys on sites like this have a one-track, one-dimensional mind.
Bull, wrestling is an Olympic sport. How much more legitimate can it get?
Vanman (87 )
03.7.2012 20:56There must be a straight answer to the question!
I wrestle because I enjoy it. Full stop
I'm straight by the way.
Ironbull (96)
02.7.2012 14:58Hmm. Well we're all different. But you must admit that the topic has prompted fierce debate.
For myself, I think wrestling has uniquely sexual potential among sports, and the more society is sexually permissive the more wrestling is sexualised. Therefore, in cultural terms, wrestling is gay and has to fight its way out of that corner or be consigned to the world of fetish where currently it languishes.
Sturdy (31)
30.6.2012 20:45btw Bull, I forgot to answer your question... Yes, I have wrestled a woman. She was a judo blue belt, young slip of a girl and she whupped me good!
wrestler4u (0)
08.10.2012 0:45(In antwoord hierop)
Well that does not surprise me in the least!
Sturdy (31)
30.6.2012 20:45It is disappointing that so many gay men have so little imagination that they are incapable of understanding how wrestling can be enjoyed for exactly what it is - a SPORT.
Maybe it is because of a lack of experience. At school I was bored with sport and never got involved so I never experienced the male bonding culture.
Things are different now. I train at a BJJ club and spar with straight men. We all enjoy the grappling very much, and all in the same way: as an adrenaline, rush, release of aggression, fight to win.
I've seen gay pro/fetish wrestlers having a lark and it is a million miles from what I do.
Enjoy wrestling as wank material if you want, but do try to understand that the image in your mind when you are masturbating is not the actual reality.
borbaboy (0)
30.6.2012 12:18I really don't understand all the fuzz about wrestling being “gay”. Considered objectively, wrestling, grappling, Pro-Wrestling is just another form of sports and/or entertainment with its specific sets of rules and regulations, and has nothing to do with the sexual notions of “gay” or “straight” or what ever.
If your are sexually aroused by practising or watching grappling/wrestling, then – well, then wrestling per se still isn't “gay”. It's YOU who are probably gay or bisexual or have a kind of wrestling fetish. And so what? If you don't feel any kind of sexual arousal or erotic stimulation while practising/watching wrestling, you can still enjoy the excitement of the competition or the physical exercise. And if you feel any erotic arousal – even better! Then you still can enjoy the excitement of the competition and the physical exercise PLUS the additional benefit of erotic pleasure. So, where's the “problem”?
UK Alex (16)
14.1.2012 19:15grappler2112 and I were in a public place together recent and we'd just been discussing aikido. He spontaneously decided to demonstrate some on me which was highly effective. It was done in a friendly, non aggressive way and although I was experiencing real pain, anyone watching could tell it took place playfully and within the boundaries of trust. We both noted interestingly that men walking past all seemed to grin and get an eyeful of the situation and I perceived that they were wishing they were involved. This was not a sexual experience that i knew of for anyone but it seemed to tap into the innate male natural wish to grapple.
I'd love to hear of similar experiences... Perhaps try our scenario and gauge the reaction of passers-by!
Sturdy (31)
11.12.2011 22:04Tallblondjobber: Apparently rugby player's jockstraps are not unheard of to be full of jizzum after a match.
I trust you gleaned this fact from an authoritative source?
benjobber (14)
13.11.2011 11:28Who cares.
Tallblondwrestler (79)
12.11.2011 19:53And on a related topic: Apparently rugby player's jockstraps are not unheard of to be full of jizzum after a match.
So male-male contact sport may create this reaction in some men. I wouldn't say that means it is "gay" though.
crazydon76 (0)
10.11.2011 17:18A very interesting discussion! I've no real insight but I have a story. Back in the mid-1960's I was in high school in the US. One of my buddies was talking with a classmate who was on the wrestling team. Teens can get an erection at the drop of a feather so he asked the wrestler if that was a problem. As I recall the wrestler said 'it happens but it's no big thing'. The physical contact is just physical contact and if your dick is rubbing up against someone's butt you are likely to get a physical reaction. Especially if you are a teen!
Ironbull (96)
09.11.2011 20:46I wouldn't wrestle a woman. Would you? I'm certainly not brainwashed.
Sturdy (31)
08.11.2011 1:41IronbullUK: "Is it not the case that wrestling is inherently sexual?"
No, it is not the case.
Wrestling is exciting and physical and satisfying, yes, so I can see the parallels, but unless you are Sigmund Freud then you cannot call it sexual just for those reasons.
I think this (very prevalent) attitude among gay men that wrestling = sex tells us very little about wrestling and very much about how the minds of a lot of gay men work.
So many gay men are brainwashed by a combination of homophobia and the commercially hypersexual Gay Scene Orthodoxy that they have a totally distorted perception of what masculinity is.
Wrestling is a sport. Honestly. Yes, I know Gaydar lists it as a 'Sexual activity' profile option, but it really isn't.
Look up "wrestling" in a dictionary or on Wikipedia. Your jaw may drop when you discover there is absolutely NO mention of gay sex!!!
"Am I the only one to feel a satisfaction after wrestling that feels very much like sexual satisfaction?"
It's called an endorphin high. You can get it from jogging, swimming, cycling, etc. etc... all of which I'm sure you can sexualise!
Tallblondwrestler (79)
05.11.2011 17:13What is "gay" and "straight" here?
There's no doubt that there is a sexual charge to wrestling and gay/bi men will enjoy it. But in a lot of male-male contact sport "straight" men will get a "homoerotic" thrill out of what they are doing - even if not admitted. That's because fighting like sex is a deeply rooted male instinct - and the reality of it is - is that there is a sexual thrill to these competitions - whether you are a gay man or not.
The national growth in team/contact sports games between males has increased since the Second World War which is the lat time ordinary men were "required" to go into combat.
The ancient greeks treated homsexuality/wrestling as a stage in male maturity. It is only our society that wants to force men into a single category. We are all individuals.
I think guys are pretty complex sexually and as one poster said wrestling can be sexual without being genital.
Ironbull (96)
19.9.2011 10:27I totally agree with you rugbysex
rugbysex (0)
19.9.2011 9:58something can be sexual w/out being genital. i think wrestling is often the former w/out being the latter. cheers!
Ironbull (96)
18.9.2011 14:08He's 20 and at uni. The youth of today....they are far more comfortable asking about these things that when I were a lad lol
It's amazing how many definitions of "gay" have appeared in this thread. I only have only one and it equates to homosexual, but I am admittedly an old git.
MancsMonkey (0)
18.9.2011 13:55If your nephew is 'curious,' I could show him a thing or two (when he hits 16, natch!)
ricantarzan (5)
17.9.2011 1:29I would maybe take him to a local jiu jitsu or wrestling club so that he can see that wrestling is a combat sport first and foremost. While many men (including straight men) find a sexual thrill and connection from it as well, that should never diminish the true nature of the sport itself.
Ironbull (96)
16.9.2011 10:29He was just curious
ricantarzan (5)
16.9.2011 7:41Ironbull, what was the context of the conversation with the nephew? Here in the United States, freestyle, collegiate and greco roman wrestling is taught from a very early age on in many schools and clubs across the country. Many submission grappling and pankration events have youth categories for kids as young as 5 and none of these events are hardly viewed as 'gay' by the participants or their parents/families/friends.
brightonbearhug (2)
15.9.2011 14:40I, with hindsight, foolishly admitted to a straight friend about my wrestling. Unfortunately said "friend" spread it around as gossip, and quickly found myself lampooned. But that was a long time ago.
It's an unanswerable question really. Like many things, the "genral public" will make ill-informed perceptions about something they don't understand or have tried. People find it easy to dismiss something they don't understand as "wrong" or "weird". Look at how people treat religions for an overwhelming example.
But is wrestling "gay"? The lack of clothing and lots of body-contact is a turn-on for many.
But wrestling is also about a true battle of wills, strength, guile, dominance. Playful or aggressive, it's something natural amongst males .. and can be witnessed throughout nature too.
But of course, it's all about perception. I'm sure a lot of my straight male friends would love a play-fight, but wouldn't feel so happy about taking their shirts off and explaining bruises to their gf's/wives. Yet it is in our very nature as guys to grapple eachother, prove "who's strongest", and to bond in the way men tend to regardless of sexuality.
The "sex" energy is misunderstood and simplified. So often relegated as the urge to "have sex", this same emotion defines urges to fight, protect, expend pent-up energy, even get a bit primal and grapple that man.
Yes, it can be a prelude to something "gay", but it can also be a wonderful outlet of aggression in a manly way. The image isn;t great, and don't expect it to change much - a lot of small-minded ignorants out there will reinforce this.
It's all about a "stigma" connecting man2man grappling with homosexuality. If that stigma never existed I am convinced you would see legions of straight men feel comfortable enough to join us and wrestle.
Ironbull (96)
12.9.2011 22:46Is it not the case that wrestling is inherently sexual? I don't mean that it replicates or substitutes for or is a prelude to the sexual act. I mean that it has a significance that is deeply personal, intimate and related in some way to sexual identity. The gear amplifies and proclaims this so I agree with Darren's point.
Am I the only one to feel a satisfaction after wrestling that feels very much like sexual satisfaction? I doubt it.
What other sport does that?
turpin (71)
12.9.2011 21:15This is a very interesting strand, with some very perceptive comments being made. I'm not sure I fully agree with Darren's comment about the sexual perception being just related to the way wrestling's executed (and I'm sure he won't be miffed at my saying so) - simply because MMA/UFC is getting an increasing amount of coverage as a serious sport, yet the gear can be skimpy in the extreme and the physical contact as close as any form of combat sport. I think it's more of a cultural thing perpetuated by US forms and the business and money they generate, especially in the internet age - and I think BG East and NHB Battles and the like have plenty to answer for! With UTube and daily motion full of clips from this type of wrestling, we can't really expect younger viewers to see it as a "straight" sport. And whilst I've never told work colleagues about my recreational wrestling, many of my friends know and although some have expressed surprise, all have been supportive.
Ironbull (96)
11.9.2011 22:03I wonder if there is a correlation between acceptance of homosexuality and marginalisation of wrestling. I am fascinated to learn that in homophobic countries - Iran, Afghanistan, Arab countries - wrestling is unashamed of itself (as used to be the case in the West). Who on this site would tell their mates down the pub that they wrestle as a hobby.....?
Lincoln Lad (66)
11.9.2011 12:23There have been many changes in society since WoS' heyday - some of them good, even - but the main change was the introduction of WWE to these shores.
With due apologies to our American cousins, WWE totally changed UK society's view of wrestling - and changed it for the worse, IMHO.
In WoS' day, it was "real" men, who (by and large) got straight in the ring, were briefly introduced by the MC, and then got on with it. They were the sort of blokes who you might see down the pub or in the barbers. There were very few bodybuilders, just in shape blokes, who had other jobs during the day and wrestled in the evenings for money AND for the love of the sport.
The vast majority wore just plain trunks and boots - and were blokes you could aspire to being, if you were prepared to put in some time down the gym.
Compare that with today's WWE, which is pure garbage. Hype, badly-scripted story lines, takes 10 or so minutes for a bout to even get going and when it does it's simply not credible. I do not doubt their fitness or dedication to the gym - but it's not a form of wrestling that I find at all appealing.
Add to that the current vogue for having skin-trunks with logos right on the crotch and ass and you can see why the "gay" label comes about. The homo-erotic aspects of pro-wrestling were far more subtle in WoS' day - with WWE, they're blatant and hence leave the sport open to the criticism of being "gay" - in all senses of the word....
Ironbull (96)
11.9.2011 11:31So is the gay perception a reason why it is treated with less respect thatn other combat sports? And if so, what has changed in society since World of Sport's heyday?
Tynesider (85)
11.9.2011 9:17That's a good post Lincoln Lad.
I think you've neatly summed up the position.
Lincoln Lad (66)
11.9.2011 0:57Would the same question be raised of boxing? Judo? Karate? In my opinion, no, it wouldn't.
So it's not the combat aspect of wrestling that leaves it open to the accusation of being "gay", it's the way the sport is executed.
I recently saw a news article on the telly for a submission wrestling tournament taking place in a town near me. The guys were wearing combat shorts and T-shirts - and I don't think anybody would have accused those guys of being "gay". But it probably would have been different, had they been wearing skimpy trunks and little else...
So I guess I agree with Turpin and Sturdy - wrestling is as "gay" as you want it to be - but it doesn't have to be, that's for sure....
Sturdy (31)
10.9.2011 23:23It's not sexual for me, it's just a sport. And I am gay, with a very high sex drive.
The fact that YOU see wrestling as being fundamentally sexual probably answers your own original question!
Ironbull (96)
10.9.2011 22:01but it is highly sexual even if no sex is involved. At least that is what most of the profiles indicate
turpin (71)
10.9.2011 0:43Like so many questions there's no simple answer. But basically wrestling itself isn't gay - it is one of the oldest and "simplest" sports in human history. Just go back to the years immediately after WW2 to the heyday of WoS: wrestling was enjoyed by millions of both sexes and all ages. The theatrical and stylised pro wrestling emanating from the US and aped in the UK killed off sensible adult interest and the sport has suffered since. Its perception as gay now stems from ignorance of what wrestling actually is - critics do not trouble to look beyond the physical contact of mostly naked flesh. There is also a lot of fear:it's easy to dismiss something as "gay" i.e beneath heterosexual notice, when in reality most straight guys who train at the gym and show their muscles off at the beach in Lanzarote once a year etc would run a mile rather than face up to a real fight. It is pyschologically not easy to get your clothes off and pit your strength and skill, unsupported by tools or protective gear, against another guy in the most uncompromising of contact sports. It's not gay unless you want it to be....
Ironbull (96)
09.9.2011 22:26I think straight men are afraid of it but the fact that it is this they are afraid of is a form of homophobia
bedroompresser (3)
09.9.2011 14:31Iremember Eminem saying wrestlers were gays despite the fact many Americans are taught this sport at college. Either way if he sees men prancing around in spandex or Y fronts such as WWF and his friends say it's gay (because their parents say so) then I can see where he's coming from.
Teach him a few nelson moves and I'm sure he;ll change his point of views once he uses these new skills on his mates. Yes they may call it gay (close body contact with another man/boy) but then that's just typical represed sexual feelings of youth that don't know what's good for them/what they enjoy.
wrestler4u (0)
08.10.2012 0:48(In antwoord hierop)
Of course it might just be that M&M is just a homophobic bigot.
Ironbull (96)
08.9.2011 21:05But that assumes that gay means theatrical and camp.
Sturdy (31)
07.9.2011 23:24Maybe because he watches WWE and sees preened choreographed bodybuilders prancing around pretending they are fighting. If this is what he thinks wrestling is, then I can understand why he thinks it's gay (in both senses of the word!)
Stick some UFC on and see if he thinks THAT is gay...
Ironbull (96)
07.9.2011 22:23No, it was the basis for a reasonable question. I could have phrased it as "why does wrestling attract a derision not shares by other sports and is it because it uniquely has gay properties" but my nephew couched it in more succinct terms.
SileX (209 )
07.9.2011 22:03You are 48 years old, and you take your clues on sexuality from a 14-year-old?
Ironbull (96)
07.9.2011 15:10No he means homosexual
Tynesider (85)
07.9.2011 7:57Hmmm, well fistly I'd clarify with him what he means by "gay". I understand the youth of today use gay to mean something is good (or perhaps bad - I can't remember which).
Ironbull (96)
06.9.2011 21:54According to my 14 year old nephew, it is. Is he right?